I can imagine, having grown up thinking the fall was because we ‘ate the apple’, wanted to be like God, to be gods, there might be a thought or two floating around that this might just be the accuser acting up
to deceive once again. Nay Nay! I feel we’ve been quite led astray believing God needed a second plan.
Having heard first from other teachers about the ‘really Real’ I revel in this entire conversation. Much Love to you both, once again.
Beautifully said, “Being naturally not God as we are as creatures is no longer a barrier to you being unified with God, which means that nature’s limits are not limits to Reality”
Dang, 7 minutes left and I h a v e to get into work. I love what I do there, but I can’t wait until 2:30 so I can continue the listen - and begin again! 😁
Finally was able to finish listening to this, and wow is it a powerful conversation! Diving deep into creation and lifting the soul up to the heights of the divine, you two have such powerful synergy.
So many thoughts, I will need to digest this. However, that word that we were discussing in your excerpt of this podcast episode the other day -- ἐπιθυμία -- came up now for me, when after having finished the podcast, I went back to my current pastime of reading Dr. Wood's book along with St. Maximus's writings. In his chapter entitled "The Beginning", he highlights Ambiguum 33 as a particularly powerful revelation of creation as Incarnation. So I have been working through this incredibly dense letter (or shall I say, "thick"? Read the passage to get the pun), and when I got the end, a particularly intense insight came my way.
The last part of the last sentence, as translated by Dr. Wood, is "for His own sake, He contracted us in view of union with Himself, to that same degree He Himself, for our sake, expanded His very self through the principle of condescension." Essentially, by creating the world, the Logos expands Himself (with the vertical metaphor of moving "down") for the sake of His creation, and the telos of this is deification, the contraction of us *for His own sake* back into Himself. This phrase "for His own sake" really struck me. Why would he do this for "His own sake"? What is the point? Well, it's because He is the alpha and the omega, the origin and the end, of all that was, is, and shall be; and He creates all of this in order to fulfill His desire -- His ἐπιθυμία -- of sharing the infinitely overflowing love that He eternally is. And that fulfillment only happens when all of creation is united to Him, i.e. deified.
This word ἐπιθυμία is also fascinating because the base, θυμός, means "soul; heart; desire; mind" (among many other things, it's quite multivalent) and comes from the root in Proto-Indo-European *dʰuh₂mós, which means "smoke" (it's cognate with Latin "fumus", whence English "fumes", for example). So there is a directionality to this root -- the smoke's natural movement up to the sky, our soul's inherent inclination to ascend up to the heavens -- that came to mind when reflecting on St. Maximus's vision of the Logos condescending to expand through creation and our logoi ascending to contract back into Him.
So taking this into where Dr. Wood went with your point about ἐπιθυμία, where the institution of the Eucharist is in a sense the impetus or cause of the crucifixion because He speaks in the present tense about the body being broken and the blood being shed: the Eucharist is in a sense the ultimate embodiment, the ultimate Incarnation, because He condescends (there's that word again) to become even inanimate matter, so that we can partake of Him and come back to Him. He becomes the vehicle for that contraction that is the journey of return to Him. And this illuminates in a new way for me why Paul spoke so vehemently about the necessity of taking the Eucharist with reverence -- He went through life, death, resurrection, even becoming inanimate matter, in order for us to be able to partake of His Incarnation...this is His ultimate gift to us for us to come back home!
The liminal spaces between seemingly opposing domains are where I tend to roam: the ebb and flow between ineffable mystical experience and reverent, yet still verbal liturgy; the fault lines between Chalcedonian Christology and the non-dualistic traditions of the East; the give and take between the various cultural expressions of the Christian faith; the push and pull of ancient tradition and the development of dogma and practice. All of this deeply informed by daily prayer, family life, and my background in Classics and linguistics.
Wow, what an honor… Next year sounds ambitious — I will need to study a few lifetimes worth of theology and history to be able to live up to the company I would hold 🙏
I can imagine, having grown up thinking the fall was because we ‘ate the apple’, wanted to be like God, to be gods, there might be a thought or two floating around that this might just be the accuser acting up
to deceive once again. Nay Nay! I feel we’ve been quite led astray believing God needed a second plan.
Having heard first from other teachers about the ‘really Real’ I revel in this entire conversation. Much Love to you both, once again.
Beautifully said, “Being naturally not God as we are as creatures is no longer a barrier to you being unified with God, which means that nature’s limits are not limits to Reality”
That excites me too!
Dang, 7 minutes left and I h a v e to get into work. I love what I do there, but I can’t wait until 2:30 so I can continue the listen - and begin again! 😁
Finally was able to finish listening to this, and wow is it a powerful conversation! Diving deep into creation and lifting the soul up to the heights of the divine, you two have such powerful synergy.
So many thoughts, I will need to digest this. However, that word that we were discussing in your excerpt of this podcast episode the other day -- ἐπιθυμία -- came up now for me, when after having finished the podcast, I went back to my current pastime of reading Dr. Wood's book along with St. Maximus's writings. In his chapter entitled "The Beginning", he highlights Ambiguum 33 as a particularly powerful revelation of creation as Incarnation. So I have been working through this incredibly dense letter (or shall I say, "thick"? Read the passage to get the pun), and when I got the end, a particularly intense insight came my way.
The last part of the last sentence, as translated by Dr. Wood, is "for His own sake, He contracted us in view of union with Himself, to that same degree He Himself, for our sake, expanded His very self through the principle of condescension." Essentially, by creating the world, the Logos expands Himself (with the vertical metaphor of moving "down") for the sake of His creation, and the telos of this is deification, the contraction of us *for His own sake* back into Himself. This phrase "for His own sake" really struck me. Why would he do this for "His own sake"? What is the point? Well, it's because He is the alpha and the omega, the origin and the end, of all that was, is, and shall be; and He creates all of this in order to fulfill His desire -- His ἐπιθυμία -- of sharing the infinitely overflowing love that He eternally is. And that fulfillment only happens when all of creation is united to Him, i.e. deified.
This word ἐπιθυμία is also fascinating because the base, θυμός, means "soul; heart; desire; mind" (among many other things, it's quite multivalent) and comes from the root in Proto-Indo-European *dʰuh₂mós, which means "smoke" (it's cognate with Latin "fumus", whence English "fumes", for example). So there is a directionality to this root -- the smoke's natural movement up to the sky, our soul's inherent inclination to ascend up to the heavens -- that came to mind when reflecting on St. Maximus's vision of the Logos condescending to expand through creation and our logoi ascending to contract back into Him.
So taking this into where Dr. Wood went with your point about ἐπιθυμία, where the institution of the Eucharist is in a sense the impetus or cause of the crucifixion because He speaks in the present tense about the body being broken and the blood being shed: the Eucharist is in a sense the ultimate embodiment, the ultimate Incarnation, because He condescends (there's that word again) to become even inanimate matter, so that we can partake of Him and come back to Him. He becomes the vehicle for that contraction that is the journey of return to Him. And this illuminates in a new way for me why Paul spoke so vehemently about the necessity of taking the Eucharist with reverence -- He went through life, death, resurrection, even becoming inanimate matter, in order for us to be able to partake of His Incarnation...this is His ultimate gift to us for us to come back home!
Fear not, my friend. The Plunge, like creation, is for everyone. The diversity of voices and experiences enrich and refresh the whole!
Well, I am certainly willing to take the Plunge, as you say! ☀️
What areas of theology and culture are most exhilarating for you?
The liminal spaces between seemingly opposing domains are where I tend to roam: the ebb and flow between ineffable mystical experience and reverent, yet still verbal liturgy; the fault lines between Chalcedonian Christology and the non-dualistic traditions of the East; the give and take between the various cultural expressions of the Christian faith; the push and pull of ancient tradition and the development of dogma and practice. All of this deeply informed by daily prayer, family life, and my background in Classics and linguistics.
Lots to dive into there, my friend! I’ll check in with you in a few months as we map out the 2026 schedule!
That sounds brilliant, thank you Derek 🙌
Thank you for your brilliant addition to the conversation! I really appreciate it. It would be fun to have you on the plunge next year!
Wow, what an honor… Next year sounds ambitious — I will need to study a few lifetimes worth of theology and history to be able to live up to the company I would hold 🙏